Bible Talk with Pastor Moss
Transcribed† by Willette Junior
Saturday, March 27, 2010
Pastor Moss: Many of you have heard me say that I do not believe, I do not ascribe to the belief that apostles are for today. By that I mean that there are no apostles today like Paul, like John, like James, like Matthew, like any of the New Testament apostles. I just donít believe it. Rather than me come from a negative angle and attack it in one way, letís take this approach. Letís ask ourselves the question which nobody ask themselves, nobodyís looking at this the way they really should. I think we should start by asking ourselves, what is an apostle and what are the qualifications of an apostle?
†Itís not like the bible is silent about this. The bible does lay down that there are certain qualifications for a New Testament apostle. And if a person does not match those qualifications they can call themselves whatever they want, but you cannot be a New Testament apostle unless you meet the qualifications of one. So, Iím wondering:
1. Can you name what these qualifications are?
2. †What does it take to be an apostle?
3. What kind of criteria is it?
4. What is it that makes a person an apostle anyway?
And thatís the whole challenge for today. Itís not just that you go to school and you come out, hey Iím an apostle now. I took apostleship 101, thatís not the way it works. The bible lays down a certain standard. The bible has certain qualifications. What are those qualifications?
If you get it correct I will even supply the scripture. Man, and thatís a big step for me. Normally I donít give you anything! But, if you can name the qualifications, the biblical and theological qualifications, then I will help you with the scripture that shows it, that justifies it, that makes it biblical. Youíve got to start, so if you know what the qualifications of an apostle are give us a call. If you have read something, can remember something in the New Testament that lets you know what those qualifications are, then you need to give me a call. Iíll tell you if youíre right and go to the word of God to see if we can find something to back it up.
Is a apostle and a bishop the same thing?
Pastor Moss: No they are not.
Well there no sense in me going any further. I was going to go to Timothy, I believe its Timothy about the husband of one wife.
Pastor Moss: Youíre right in I timothy 3 and over in Titus 1.
1 Timothy 3:† 1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Titus 1: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
And a lot of times people just put all these terms together. They think an apostle, and a bishop and evangelist, theyíre all the same, but actually theyíre not. Thereís a lot of similarity between them, but these are different offices within the church, and so itís very important to know that, because people come around today and they say that theyíre this or that, how do you know if you canít define the terms. Every discussion starts out with the definition of terms.
I think the qualifications are in Acts 1:22. You must be a witness of the resurrection of Christ.
Acts 1: 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Pastor Moss: So an eye witness of the resurrection or of the resurrected Christ?
Of the resurrected Christ.
Pastor Moss:† Right. A lot of folks would think this means the resurrection. No one or no human being was an eyewitness to the resurrection itself. But, they did have to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ. Are you saying that thatís across the board, that any apostle had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ?
Yes, cause Paul met him and Peter, they spent time with him so you actually had to have been with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Pastor Moss: That is one of them. In order to be an apostle you had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ. You had to see Jesus after he rose from the dead. I Corinthians 9:1 (read passage)
1 Corinthians 9: 1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
†that was a criteria. My problem with folks today who want to say theyíre apostles, they werenít eyewitnesses actually of the resurrected Lord.† So, that is one of the qualifications, thatís not the only one, but I would have to admit that is a key one.
They had to have seen him taken up into heaven.
Pastor Moss: †Is there something that says that they had to see him taken up into heaven?
Acts† chapter 1.
Pastor Moss: ††ok. Acts1:11,
Acts 1: 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
now hereís what we know, and youíre right, they did see him go into heaven, but whether or not they had to, I would say this, thatís not frightfully wrong. Basically thatís related to the first thing we said, they had to see the resurrected Christ. That would not be a key qualification, still weíre talking about they had to see the resurrected Christ. Now this one that we have is a key one but it is not the only one. There are other criteria of an apostle that let you know this could not describe a person today.
My biblical position is that there are things that the apostles did that no one could do today. If you call yourself an apostle today, youíre calling yourself an apostle in a different sense than John, James, Paul, & Peter. Thatís my only position and I believe that that can be proven biblically and weíve started on that position already.
First of all to be an apostle they had to be called by God and ordained by Christ.
Pastor Moss: †††So, in other words youíre saying #2, besides being an eyewitness they had to be called to the office of an apostle, is that right?
Acts1: 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Pastor Moss: ††youíre right. They had to be called to the office. Why is that so? Let me challenge you further. Why is that so that being an eyewitness wasnít enough, that they had to be called also? How do we know that thatís so?
Iím not quite sure, but when Jesus called them to be his apostles he instructed them, he taught them, they walked with him and as the first caller said they were eyewitnesses, they were the first witnesses, and they were told and instructed by the Lord to go out and preach and teach to all men.
Pastor Moss: †Now, youíre exactly right, in fact this was what they did. They were taught by Jesus, they spent a lot of time with Jesus, when we look at Luke 6:13 where we see the selection of the apostles and here Jesus had been praying all night (read beginning at Luke 6:12)
Luke 6: 12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
so he called them, they were with him and the reason why you had to be chosen is because the fact thereís a lot of people who saw the resurrected Christ who still didnít become apostles. He was seen by Mary and others, you didnít become an apostle just because you saw him, but one of the qualifications was that you had to see him, but then you had to be chosen just as it says in Luke 6 and just as it says over in Acts 9 concerning Paul, but the Lord said go thy way for he is a chosen vessel. So you are exactly right you take another one off the table.
Acts 9: 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
And one other scripture used for that I Corinthians 1:1.
1 Corinthians1: 1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Pastor Moss: ††Still we got two of the qualifications down but there are more. Can you find them? Give us a call.
I have Luke 24:46-49.† In 47 it gives Jesus gave authority for them to take the message of repentance to all nations beginning in Jerusalem, thereís forgiveness of sin for all who turn to me and you are witnesses of all these things and verse 49 says and I will send the Holy Spirit just as my Father promised but stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with the power from heaven.
Luke 24: 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Pastor Moss: ††you did a very good job. What you said was this basically, that they were given a commission to preach the word of God and they spoke an authoritative message. In other words, they were his key spokespersons for the gospel. Not to say that others didnít do it after them, but what youíre saying is that they had a special commission, is that right?
Pastor Moss: ††In fact it was so special that over in John 17 it say this, this what Jesus said concerning them (verse 20)
John 17: 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Everyone that believes now, you believe on the gospel as it was preached and written by the apostles. In fact it goes so far in Act chapter 2
Acts 2: 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
I believe and you can tell me if Iím wrong, I donít think so, but wasnít the gospel called the apostles doctrine?
Well I canít tell you that youíre wrong. (Laughter).
Pastor Moss: ††Well you can if I am, but especially if Iím right because that is what it says. It was the apostlesí doctrine. That was because the commission was so special to them until literally the gospel that they preached was called the apostles doctrine even though we know it was actually the doctrine of the Lord. This is in Acts chapter 2 verse 42, weíll read verse 41 as well (read passages)
Acts 2: 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
So youíre exactly right, they were specially commissioned. Thatís what we mean when we say they had a foundational ministry. That God commissioned them and through them to preach his word, to preach the gospel. Good job so far we got three of them out of the way. These are qualifications that the apostles had that nobody has today.
There are more.
There were gifts also.
Pastor Moss: ††What is it about the apostles and gifts?
In Ephesians 4 from 7 to 11.
Pastor Moss: †††Doesnít that say he gave gifts to men did it say necessarily that he gave them to the apostles?
Pastor Moss: †††Is there a verse that talks about the apostles having special signs and gifts? If you can find that you might be in the ball park. I thought she had it and sheís so, so close. Weíve got to recognize that there are things that the apostles did that no man or woman can do today, not like they did.
I think if Iím not mistaken the qualifications were you had to be a follower of Jesus, you had to witness his crucifixion, his burial and you had to witness his resurrection and be given the great commission.
Pastor Moss: †Some of those seem to fit, how would Paul fit into all of that?
Because he witnessed the resurrected Christ when he was on his way to Damascus when he was knocked off of his horse.
Pastor Moss: ††The only thing you put in there, you said he witnessed the crucifixion.
Iím sorry, I didnít mean the crucifixion, cause it was a lot of them that didnít actually witness the crucifixion. But, they had to know Jesus during his ministry and they had to have seen him or spoken with him after his resurrection. They had to know that he was at least crucified.
Pastor Moss: ††Now hereís what we have already; you had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ, you had to be called to the office of an apostle, they spoke an authoritative message. (Luke 10 and John 17) now other than these what else?
If Iím not mistaken they had to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Moss: ††Well, we all have to have the Holy Spirit of God. How is that a special thing that made someone an apostle?
Well originally the disciples hadnít been filled with the Holy Spirit yet. So, when they went to the upper room, thatís when the Holy Spirit came, He was the one that they originally gave the message to __________ until the Holy Spirit came and once it came it was here. That may not be a qualification.
Pastor Moss: ††It wasnít a specific qualification cause we have people today who are filled with the Holy Spirit, yet theyíre not apostles.
Right. Cause they were able to do miracles also.
Pastor Moss: ††Ok. Youíre walking on the ball field. You about to play ball and Iím about to throw a fast ball to you, let me see if you can hit it? Now, youíre saying that the apostles had to be able to perform miracles?
Pastor Moss: †: But, didnít other Christians perform miracles?
Let me see, they probably did and some of the disciples performed miracles even before.
Pastor Moss: ††What was the difference then between the apostles performing miracles and other Christians performing them in the New Testament? If you can answer that you got it. Youíre close, youíre up there, youíre out of the dugout.
The apostles were given the authority directly from Jesus to perform miracles, directly from him himself.
Pastor Moss: ††I want to say this to you cause this would be a good time to say to you, I wonít accept it until you give me the scripture but, what happens is I said that if your theology was good, I would add the scripture, if you heard the beginning of the program. Because you said it very well, your theological pronouncement was very clear and I think what backs you up 100% here is over in II Corinthians 12:12 (read passage)
2 Corinthians 12: 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
†the apostles had special signs and wonders that they were given. In fact they were called the signs of an apostle in II Corinthians 12:12. So youíre right, they did have special, miraculous authority because they were apostles, as a further confirmation of their office. So, I give it to you buddy.
Well pastor the whole issue was I was trying to figure out how anybody could call theyself an apostle.
Pastor Moss: ††I have a lot of problems with that today. Its gaining some momentum, itís called the restoration movement where people are saying that we have to have apostles just like we had in the new testament, but we canít because they had a foundational ministry. No one is repeating what these guys did. And that becomes a problem today that folks canít answer that question because they donít know what the qualifications of an apostle were.
They had to have authorship of the new testament. They had to have been a writer.
Pastor Moss: ††So in other words, the apostles could write inspired scripture. Thatís a good one right? In fact they were inspired by God directly in this regard. Now, Iím going to ask you, you donít have to come up with it, Iíll help you if I have to. I Corinthians 14:37 (read passage)
I Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
so heís writing the Lordís commandments. The scripture is authoritative isnít it? Let me ask you this question: Does it seem to you, in reading the new testament that the apostles had authority over all the churches?
Yes it does.
Pastor Moss: †††Youíre exactly right cause thatís the case. Even Peter said in II Peter 3:1 (read passage)
2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
First Peter said be mindful of what the prophet said, then he says and of the commandments of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior.† So, Peter here is putting him and the rest of the apostles on the same level as the old testament prophets. Now, I donít think that anybody today can do that.
No, I agree.
Pastor Moss: Now maybe some of you can see why it is that I donít believe there are apostles today who are the same or has the same ministry as the apostles did in the New Testament. The apostle in the Bible had a foundational ministry which cannot be repeated. You can call yourself whatever you want, but I would hope you would put to it that Iím an apostle missionary, something like that. But youíre not like Paul, James, John, or Peter.
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Some of the Key Qualification of the Apostle office:
1. †They were eyewitness of the resurrected Christ -They saw Him in his gloried body.
2. They were called to the office of Apostleship.† Had to be called by God or Christ himself.
3. They spoke an authoritative message. (WE HAVE THEIR MESSAGE IN THE FORM OF THJE New Testament).
4. They had special signs of apostleship.
5. They wrote an authoritative message. (WE HAVE THEIR MESSAGE IN THE FORM OF THJE New Testament).
6. They had authority over all the churches.
a. Peterís reference to Paul:†† 2 Peter 3:15-16 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
b. Paul quotes from Deuteronomy and Luke† in 1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.
This quotation consist of two statements:
∑ The first part of the quotation is taken from Deuteronomy25:4: Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out [the corn].
∑ The Second part of the quotation is from Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
†††††††††††††††††† Paul is calling both scripture.
c. Jude quotes Peter in Jude 17,18: These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; †
††††† 2 Peter 3:3† Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 1:16† For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.†† 2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
†† O.T Writings|1400B.C<--------->400B.C.|
†††††††††† ††††††††Silent Period/Intertestamental|400 years<------>|
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††N.T./Apostles |45AD<-------->95AD|
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††General Church Fathers Writings|95-100AD<----->150AD|
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††More Extensive Church Fathers Writings |150AD<----->200AD|
CRONOLOGY OF SOME CHURCH FATHERS AND WRITING
† 95A.D Clements of
145A.D Justin Martyr, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Teaching of Twelve Apostles
This covers† the literature written to about 145A.D: Epistle of Barnabas,Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (Didaches),
The Shepherd of Hermas, and The Gospel of Truth. This is about fifty years after the last Apostles Death.
160A.D Epistles of Hermas and the Didache
170A.D.: A work by Irenaeus 250 large pages of English text (He was a pupil of Polycarp who new John).†
170A.D. The catalog of N.T. book called the Muratorian Fragments (parts destroyed).
200A.D writings by Tertullian
of North Africa and Clements of
†††††††††††††††††††††††††† Church Fathers |95-100AD<----->200AD|
†††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††Constantine† Conversion| 313A.D††
†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Mohammed Born| 570A.D†††
†††††††††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††Koran written about |632A.D†† †††
†††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††Roman Catholic Church birth | 590A.D†††††††††††
SEA SCROLL: BIBILCAL SCROLL DATED
†††††††††† ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††Silent Period/Intertestamental|400 years<----|--------|-------|-------|------------>|
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††Isaiah Scroll copy |125B.C
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††Copy of Ecclesiastes |1500B.C
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Copy of Daniel |200B.C
††††††††††† †††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††Fragments of Job, Jeremiah, Samuel, and Psalm |200B.C
††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Fragments of Psalm |300B.C (unofficially)
The Greek Septuagint, translated about 200B.C has been preserved in numerous copies made by Christian scribes and an English translation has been made.††††† Thus, a student who does not know Greek and Hebrew can now compare the Septuagint with the King James Version.